Q: If I understand correctly, you believe that God's end-times wrath
does not occur until the bowl judgments, that God's wrath does not fall immediately upon the inception of the Day of the Lord, with the
trumpets. And yet, the New Testament seems to teach that Jesus'
Coming/the rapture/God's wrath fall on the same day.

What about these verses?

2 Thessalonians 1:6-10: "God is just: He will PAY BACK TROUBLE to those who trouble you and GIVE RELIEF to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus...ON THE DAY He comes to be glorified in His people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed."

1 Thess. 4:15-17: "According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

1 Thess. 5:1-2: "Now brothers, about times and dates [which Paul was just talking about in 1 Thess. 4: 13-18] we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night."

Here, Paul ties the rapture/coming in with the day of the Lord. He does this by continuing on from the rapture teaching in 1 Thess. 4:13–18 that they don't need to discuss dates concerning the rapture/coming, for they know very well that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for THAT DAY [the day Paul was just talking about in verses 1-2] will not come until the rebellion [apostasy: see NAS or KJV] occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God."

Luke 17:28-30: "It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. But THE DAY Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed."

Matthew 24:38-39: "For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, UP TO THE DAY Noah entered the ark, and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

In Rev. 9:3-5 (the fifth trumpet), we see that men are tormented by locusts/scorpions for five months. It just seems to me that wrath is always described as beginning on the same day as the coming/rapture, and it doesn't seem possible that the wrath could begin more than five months later when the bowls begin.

A: Hoo, boy. Most prewrathers believe as you do, including Rosenthal, Van Kampen, et. al. So, you are in good company

Remember, when verses like 2 Thess. 1:6-10 were written, Revelation had not been written. The breakdown between seals, trumpets, and bowls had not yet been revealed. The Day of the Lord was just seen as one big, mean time period with everything all jumbled together. It wasn't until Revelation was written that it became clear that, like the 70th Week, the Day of the Lord was made up of discrete parts. Personally, I think this is what many people miss in this discussion.

As for verses like 1 Thess. 4:15-17 and Luke 17:28-30, there is no
question that the coming of the Lord and the rapture occur the same day. We are in agreement on this. And it has always been my contention that the Second Coming/rapture is the trigger event that ushers in the Day of the Lord. So once again, we are in agreement.

The Day of the Lord brings swift, sudden judgment. Immediately, people will know that they've entered into a time of God's displeasure. The question is, Is this judgment part of the very distinct period of God's final outpouring of wrath? Wrath and judgment are different. Both are intense, and both can be harsh, but the final outpouring of God's wrath appears to be like the pouring out of a caldron of hot oil — ferocious, inescapable, and indiscriminate. The trumpets, on the other hand, are nasty, but this is also a time of evangelism, of final salvation (at the least, the remnant of the nation of Israel will come to faith in Christ at this time), and time must be allowed for this. Time must also be allowed for God's people to be protected from His wrath, either through martyrdom or by fleeing into the wilderness. When the bowls are poured out, it will be rapid and inescapable. There will be no evangelism, no repentance, and no escape. For this reason, the trumpets and the bowls are different in kind.

When you say, “It just seems to me that wrath is always described as beginning on the same day as the coming/rapture,” in most cases, it is. The exception is in Revelation — the last book of the Bible to be written — where it makes a distinction. Before the New Testament, the coming of the Messiah on the clouds was also indistinguishable from His coming at Armageddon. It wasn't until later, with the revelations to Paul, Peter, and John, that it became clear that these were actually two separate events. It is the same with God's wrath. Until the Revelation was written, the Day of the Lord was seen as one, lump judgment. Revelation reveals that it is actually a series of 14 separate judgments — seven trumpets and seven bowls. Therefore, the earlier verses must be interpreted in light of these additional revelations rather than restricting these additional revelations to the perspective of the earlier ones.

Some will argue that Rev. 15:1 ("in them, God's wrath is complete")
proves that God's wrath began earlier, in the trumpets. Yes and no. In its strictest sense, the answer is yes. God's wrath has falling since the trumpets and even earlier — since the seals, the Church Age, and even the Old Testament period. God's wrath has been abiding on unbelievers, and on Israel, for thousands of years. God's wrath doesn't begin in the 70th Week. It is simply brought to its conclusion during this time. This conclusion comes during the bowl judgments, after all of God's other purposes have been accomplished.

Thus, the phrase “in them God's wrath is complete” does not “prove” that God's wrath begins with the trumpets. Rather, it confirms that there are two types of wrath: God's wrath upon mankind (which has existed from the beginning) and God's final, end-times wrath in which His anger is completed, brought to conclusion, or “filled up,” as some translations say.

Q: Who are the Rev. 20:4 martyrs? According to the prewrath model, they are the fifth seal martyrs from the Great Tribulation. A friend of mine pointed out that assuming prewrath is accurate, the fifth seal martyrs will be resurrected at the rapture, that they are part of the “dead in Christ” who will precede the living saints at the rapture. Since martyrs in Rev. 20:4 are resurrected at the end of the 70th Week, they must be a different set of people — a set of people who were saved after the rapture.

Who would these be? From a prewrath perspective, the only answers I can come up with are that the Rev. 20:4 martyrs are people who responded to the evangelical efforts of the 144,000 from Revelation 7 or they are people who respond the Angel with Gospel (Rev. 14:6) or that for some reason, the fifth seal saints are not resurrected at the rapture.

A: Rest easy. There is a simple solution to your dilemma. First, let's
look at this phrase in its full context:

"And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years” (Rev. 20:4-6).

As you say, “souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God” are those who are martyred during the Great Tribulation. These are those who were resurrected at the Second Coming of Christ and the rapture of the Church.

The phrase, “but the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished," is a parenthetical statement. John is describing this group of blessed believers — believers who were resurrected at the coming of Christ. But then, in case his readers are wondering about the rest of those who died after the rapture, he explains, “But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.” Then he goes back to his train of thought about the martyred saints and says, “This is the first resurrection.” It continues and finishes the thought started earlier.

The Word Study Greek Interlinear NT (Reynolds), clarifies this point by actually placing this phrase in parenthesis in its English text. This
text reads:

“And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection.”

Thus, if we remove the parenthetical statement altogether, we have this:

"And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. This is the first resurrection."

Suddenly, this passage makes sense.

Why does John make the point that the martyrs on the thrones are out of the first resurrection? Comfort!

John writes: "Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection [those who give up their lives under the Antichrist]. Over such the second death has no power..." This is a comfort, a promise of blessing, to encourage believers who live under the AC's terrible reign. It's a promise they can hang onto even during the most horrific persecution that may bring their death. John is giving them encouragement, saying, "Don't worry. It will all be worth it in the end. Hang in there -- you'll get a special reward for this."



 

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